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C00002 00002	Jim,
C00004 00003	spengler and lisp
C00009 00004	∂19-Jan-81  1028	williams at PARC-MAXC 	Re: spengler and lisp 
C00012 00005	∂20-Jan-81  2118	williams at PARC-MAXC 	Re: spengler
C00013 00006	jim,
C00015 ENDMK
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Jim,

alas, i don't ssem to be over this stuff yet, so rather than bet on getting
back here 'till monday i'm shipping a draft to you. i'm still getting break-downs
on the parts and pieces, but the outline of what i'm doing and where it's going
is in place. i've shipped the whole plan, from what's up immediately (phase I)
all the way through full-scale development (Phase III). the emphasis is on
an integrated and gradual build-up of systems and personnel, with the
immediate concern of funding the low-cost end for the spring and summer projects.

please let me know which parts-and pieces of this proposal you'd be most
interested in.  if you'd like to call i'm at 408 353-3857 or msgs to  408 353-2227

						john


spengler and lisp

i don't know whether to thank you or complain. i got the abridged  version
of "decline"  and the  first volume  of the  unabridged version.   started
reading the abridged, and  was fascinated except  that some things  didn't
ring true  (e.g.  a  section  called "antiquity  and india"  that  doesn't
mention india!) so compared the unabridged version ...quite a  difference.
so now i'm reading (and re-reading!)  the first two chapters before  going
on with the rest.

it's an amazing book, both for its  content and its style. i find it  slow
going but  almost  impossible  to put  down  for  more than  a  few  hours
(grumble, grumble, grumble; it takes up all of my time now).  the style is
almost poetic  --truly  amazing that  it  comes through  the  translation.
there is a section describing the birth-death cycle of cultures that could
have come out of  Smith's "kamongo", another favorite  book of mine.   The
content, of  course, makes  hofstatder's godel-escher-bach  insights  look
like child's play; i wonder that doug didn't reference spengler.

i'm being seduced by his argument, but since my backgrounnd is not at  all
strong in  philisophy, i'm  having a  colleague who  studied  pre-socratic
greeks, give a second opinion.  at worst, this book will give me a broader
base to hang my arguments on; at best?... well that's a bit early yet.


i've finished hacking papers to the  wccf, one is the bankruptcy of  basic
--religous tract; the  other is  the tutorial  outline: "lisp,  functions,
objects, frames,  and  constraints: functional  flesh,  functional  bones"
these will turn into the santa clara courses and a book.

unfortunately, the money  for the interactive  programming lab is  getting
further away,  and the  info  world review  of  tlc-lisp doesn't  help  my
finances (or mood!)  much. their "lisp expert" doesn't know lisp or how to
read: i'm "pleased" to  discover that my lisp  compiles its programs,  i'm
"perplexed" to discover that i  only have 16-bit integers; i'm  "dismayed"
to learn that the  lisp world still wants  progs even though  do,catch,and
throw are there plus &aux-ies  and let (they could  only find let); and  i
really wonder why one needs strings longer than 256 characters in lisp for
such a tiny machine.

sigh.

to both of you: that  was a very pleasant lunch  the other day; i  reallly
appreciate finding out about spengler.

mike: --do you know if the unabridged version of "decline" is available in
paperback? i'd like it for the class).

jim: --any progress on the "rfp" front?

i'd better go hack course notes before the machine fills up.

john
∂19-Jan-81  1028	williams at PARC-MAXC 	Re: spengler and lisp 
Date: 19 Jan 1981 10:23 PST
From: williams at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: spengler and lisp
In-reply-to: JRA's message of 16 Jan 1981 0418-PST
To: John Allen <JRA at SU-AI>
cc: williams
--------------------------------------------
John,

	You force me to display my ignorance.  I've only read/seen the
abridged version.  But do you really think that novice computer scientists will
want to tackle the whole thing, even a substantial part?  You have greater hope
for the world than even I.

		Mike

mike,

i'm sure some novice computer scientists will want read spengler.   that's
one of the hopeful  signs in the  field: it's more  than a pure  technical
exercise like  much  of engineering.   the  difficulty with  the  abridged
version is the removal of much of the mathematically relevant material (as
well as short-changing much of his poetry  --he really is a poet) i  don't
believe a lot will want to read it  but, of course, a lot of people  don't
know what's  good for  them.  consider  the people  who think  "lisp is  a
special purpose list-processing language".

i've bought my own copy of vol 1, and will have to order vol 2 when i  get
some bucks.  his work puts some perspective on my rantings and ravings.  i
want to  be  able  to  talk  accurately about  his  work  for  the  spring
undergrad. course at santa clara --"the art of computer science". the real
challenge will be trying to relate  computing and spengler to the  faculty
this summer; i hope that comes off.

∂20-Jan-81  2118	williams at PARC-MAXC 	Re: spengler
Date: 20 Jan 1981 17:02 PST
From: williams at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: spengler
In-reply-to: Your message of 20 Jan 1981 0457-PST
To: John Allen <JRA at SU-AI>
cc: williams

John,

	From the sound of it I may want to attend a few of your lectures.  You
are making me think more of spengler and the intellectual revolution underway
today.  Maybe I'll even tackle the unabridged spengler.

		Mike

jim,

i agree, apollo looks interesting. i corresponded with d. nelson
about a year ago and he expressed interest in lisp as a possible
language for his machine. i didn't pursue it then 'cause they had no
machines, i had no money and with the conference, had no time.

compucolor (i, think) has announced a 68k system too, and appears to
look reasonable. i understand they're essentially without software.

... and there's rumors coming out of apple, and cromemco, and ... ;sigh.

i'll try running down rumors and details.

*** it might help me get some leverage on thses companies if i could
*** mention the NPRDC connection. would that be ok?

indeed, please call or net mail me if you have troubles/questions.
i'm here every morning but wed, from about 4am 'tll about noon, at
santa clara (408 984-4358) in afternoons, and home 7-9pm (408-353-3857)
with msgs to 408 353-2227.

on the other front: spengler has been a real win. makes me feel quite
inadequate to handle the santa clara faculty workshop.

					john